Why I Came Back To Ministry (And Started This Podcast)

Joshua Gordon: Welcome. This is podcast episode numero uno. This is The Lead Pastor Podcast. My name is Joshua Gordon. I am the editor of theleadpastor.com. Some might say I'm the head honcho. And I am so excited to talk with Becca Banyard. Becca, you're the producer, so this is one of the rare times when you actually are behind the mic, and you're in the spotlight.

And so I'm excited because I would like you to interview me for this. Usually, it's the other way around. But, like, tell folks a bit about yourself, a bit of your experience with church, and then I'm, turn it over to you, and you're taking over for the conversation. So, welcome!

Becca Banyard: Thank you, Josh. Yeah, it's great to be here.

So I grew up in church. When I was three years old, my parents went into full-time itinerant ministry. Before that, my dad was a pastor, and so I kinda grew up all over the world. I'm a third culture kid, pastor's kid, missionary kid. I'm all of the kids.

Joshua Gordon: You have, like, way more brownie points than me spiritually.

Becca Banyard: I don't think that really counts for anything with God.

Joshua Gordon: No, I think there's something theologically wrong with what I just said, but that's-

Becca Banyard: Yeah. But if we were doing works-based... Yeah, so I grew up in church and got to a point where my faith really became real for me personally, not just something that was my parents.

And my faith is really a big part of my life and of who I am, and it's what gives me purpose and meaning.

Joshua Gordon: Awesome, awesome. So I'm just stoked to have you as a producer. I've really enjoyed working with you the last couple years and getting to know you. It's just been r- super rad. So usually this is where I jump into questions, so now it's over to you, Becca.

Becca Banyard: Amazing, and I will say I've, I've loved working with you, too. So yeah, I'd actually love to start as well hearing just a little bit about your experience with church and with ministry, 'cause I know you have, you have quite a background there.

Joshua Gordon: So I grew up in a pastor's home way, way back in the day. It feels like so long ago.

So my grandfather actually planted the church that I grew up in, and then when I was 14, I think, my dad became the lead pastor at that church. And so for me, I really grew up very close to the heart, like the kinda center of kinda the, the church leadership hub. I mean, multiple times a week at services, my parents were there, I was there, and I think that was awesome in a lot of ways.

Number one, I think I really experienced all the benefits of a, of a church community and what a church can be for someone. I think it was very grounding for me. I think it was something that felt like a greenhouse in a lot of ways for just, like, the process of my faith becoming my own. I also experienced, though, some of the downsides that can come with being a pastor's kid and then especially as I got older, some of the expectations that can kind of come along.

I am the oldest of seven boys, and so with my grandfather being a pastor, then my dad being a pastor, my whole life people were like, "Josh, you're gonna be the next pastor at Lower Road Christian Fellowship." Which when you're a kid, I mean, any extra source of significance that you can grab, it's like take it.

But like that became something that ended up being quite a stressor for me, especially in my late teens and my early 20s. And so I ended up going to school for pastoral ministry, and with like three months left in my degree, I absolutely burned out, and I had some really, really rough experiences, especially in the pastoral kinda field work.

Or internships that I did, and I ended up kind of swearing off church leadership, which is ironic. So this is, like, 20-plus years ago now, and I swore I would never work for a church, like, work for a church again. And so, I mean, obviously, two decades and a lot of counseling later, I'm obviously in a very different situation, but I would say that kind of my ministry arc has been defined by redemption in the sense of- Mm

I, looking back, I can definitely see there was clearly a call of God on my life. And in a lot of ways, it was God's goodness that actually allowed me to burn out so early- Mm ... because there's so many ways, I think, that churches operate, default ways, that just kind of burnt me to a crisp that I think aren't actually healthy.

And so it kind of zeroed out my expectations around this is what church should look like. Yeah, so over the years, God began to kind of rebuild that and rebuild, like, what a healthy pastor should be and what a healthy church should be. And so yeah, I mean, I think it was maybe eight years ago now, I was really still wrestling with what did it mean to be, to have, like, this desire to be a pastor in my heart when I didn't really have any obvious avenue to explore that.

And also, I'd seen what, and experienced the dark and the bad side of it. But yeah, I remember, like, this very clear moment I was praying, I was journaling, this thought came to my mind, I think it was from God where he said, "You know, Josh, you are gonna be a pastor, but don't worry about it. Don't stress about it.

'Cause when the opportunity comes along, you're gonna want it." And there's something about that that just, like, just cleared everything, like, all the stress just gone. You know? It was, it was really wonderful. And, like, within nine months, I think, a very good friend and mentor reached out, he's like, "Hey, Josh, I've been thinking about planting a church."

And in that moment, I was like, "Yes." Like, I just ... It was like God was like, "Yep, this is the moment. This is it." And so that church is now New Life Fellowship, and we are just over seven years old now, and I'm on the pastoral team, along with, uh, three other pastors. And it is something that is amazing and horrible and fulfilling and frustrating.

I mean, any pastor understands that crazy mix, you know, of experience. And yeah, so I mean, obviously I'm a lay pastor. My full-time gig is with theleadpastor.com. And so I find it a real honor and a privilege to be in a position where I can kind of share some of my own experiences. And also, I have the space in a lot of ways to reach out to other folks with a lot more experience and wisdom, a lot more seasoned leaders, and say, "Okay, how are you doing this?"

And then I get to take that and pass it on to everybody else. And so, I mean, I think that's, for me, the kind of the, the heart that I've got just for pastors and for churches in general. I think that's kind of really driving The Lead Pastor generally, and also the podcast too.

Becca Banyard: Beautiful. One thing that stood out just in your pastoral story arc is just the kindness of God in all of it.

Yeah, absolutely. The kindness of Him to, like you said, bring you through burnout early so that you're not carrying just these, like, unhealthy habits, and then the kindness of Him to, to bring you through it, and then to give you that word so that you could just be at rest in it all. And know, know it when you see it, rather than striving to be like, "Is this it?

Is this it?" And, like, I think how kind of Him to, to lead you in that way.

Joshua Gordon: I'm not sure I would've called it kindness at the time. But looking back, I could see it. It's like, man, like, that was absolutely His goodness there, so.

Becca Banyard: Yeah. I feel like I have those things in my own life where I'm like, in the moment I'm like, "How is God kind?

How is He good- ... in all of this?" And then I look back and I'm like, "Yeah, He is kind and He is good." I'd be curious to hear from you a little bit more, digging into just kind of what, from your perspective, are the makings of a healthy church and a healthy way of- Going about church ministry, 'cause I know unfortunately, burnout is quite common in ministry.

I don't think it should be, but it is. So I think that would be something that would be useful for people to hear.

Joshua Gordon: Yeah, yeah. Lifeway Research is one of the, one of the major research foundations that they release research pretty regularly on churches and pastors, and I think there's a report from the early 2020s that came out said something like 65% of pastors at some point had considered self-harm in some way or struggle with things.

I, like, just the numbers are wild. The numbers are nuts. And so I understand it, man. Like, it totally, totally makes sense. I think probably if I had to point to, in my experience, and also just from conversations with dozens and dozens of pastors and church leaders, I would say that probably the biggest problem, which, so it's kind of the flip side of the coin of what you're asking, but I think one of the biggest problems that's there is just the loneliness, the separateness that so often comes with church leadership, and I, I think that's actually built on some really, really deeply rooted flaws, I guess, in I wanna say in the Western church, but, you know, it's like not that I know that much about the international churches that well, but, and just in, I think that in a lot of churches, there's this pedestal that pastors end up living on that really, I mean, whether they might put themselves there, they might be put there by other people, and you gotta be really careful as a pastor.

Like, if you are on that pedestal, that comes with all this pressure, pressure that you've gotta be right, pressure that you've gotta know the answers, pressure that you've gotta have everything together. And- ... for myself, and for a lot of pastors that I've talked to, the huge turning point, kind of the hinge moment of going from a place where ministry is primarily a burden to where ministry becomes more of a joy, is the moment where you realize, like, "I don't have to have it all together, and I don't have to be Mr. Pastor who's got-

...

Joshua Gordon: You know, like, a great friend and mentor of mine, Ed Underwood, says, like, "The sooner you can take off your cape, the better." You know, like, there's this, you know, spiritual superhero kind of mentality, and I mean, I lived that, and I enjoyed that sense of like, oh, people look up to me, but it's like, boy, that's a double-edged sword.

And so the sooner that you can surround yourself with people who truly, deeply love you, they love you enough that, where you can be open and vulnerable with them about your struggles, boy, the s- the sooner that you can start to really experience and, like, thrive in your own relationship with God. And so yeah, I think there's some really systemic issues with how many churches are structured, where it's-

It's the one man, the one woman, the, the pastor at the top, and I think that's actually unhealthy. I think that we aren't designed to carry that level of pressure and that level of spiritual responsibility alone.

Becca Banyard: Mm. Yeah. It's so interesting, kind of what you were saying just about this pressure to be perfect and to have it all together and whatnot because I recognize that, that, that pressure is there.

But I've found when I've had moments, like, with a mentor who's in church leadership, when they've been raw and honest with me about the- Yeah ... challenges that they are facing or the things that they're walking through that aren't perfect, those are often moments where I gain a lot of respect for them, and I- Yeah, I find them just deeply impactful to me because I'm like, okay, they're not perfect, so it's okay that I'm not striving for perfection.

Yeah, yeah. It's not about perfection, it's about basically keeping our eyes on God- Yeah ... and letting him refine us-

Joshua Gordon: Absolutely ...

Becca Banyard: not through our own strife.

Joshua Gordon: Yeah.

Becca Banyard: Our own striving, but-

Joshua Gordon: Yeah ...

Becca Banyard: through him doing it in us.

Joshua Gordon: Oh, man, that's exactly right, and I think that comes bout- down to an understanding of, like, who's building the church, 'cause ultimately it's not Josh Gordon who's building New Life Fellowship.

Jesus said to Peter, you know, I think it was Je- I always remember the Bible verses, but I, I have a hard time remembering the references. But it's like, after Jesus s- says to Peter, "Who do you say I am?" And then Peter says, "Oh, you're the Messiah- Yeah ... the son of the living God." And Jesus says, "You're right, and on this confession," it's like, "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

And there's so much, like, the more that I'm able to trust my church, quote, unquote my church, the more I can trust the church to God, ugh, the better, right? And it's like my job is, is to be a shepherd, but that is a, that's, like, a heart calling. And so... And I'm doing that with Jesus as well, and I think that's one, one of the other major pivots for me was, like, thinking about, for example, the story of the Prodigal Son.

I really identify with the older brother, and that- Mm. Mm ... part where he spins out at the end where he's like, "You know, I've been working for you for forever," and, like, "I never even got a single thing from you. Like, now this other guy's coming in." Like, I identify with that sort of righteous anger, but what Jesus says to me is like, "Hey, it's not like you've been out in the fields and I've been on the porch watching you slave away."

It's like, "No, like, I'm out there in the fields with you, and I wanna show you the family secrets. Like, I wanna show you how to do this thing just a little bit better and a little bit different." And, like... And so I think for me that's... The other thing is, like, is I'm not... Like, pastoring isn't primarily for other people in a way.

Like- Mm. Mm ... it's, pastoring is actually the role, the arena where God has said, "Josh, I'm working in your heart through this, too." And so I, like, I get to thrive as a human being as, and in pastoring, just like anybody else gets to, and it's, it's as I'm viewing my role as something that's in tandem with Christ, right?

Like, Christ in me and through me. So, yeah. Anyway. That's a deep, deep rabbit hole. It's a good rabbit, but, to chase, but-

Becca Banyard: I'd be curious to know more about what has sustained you over the years and what has kept you away from burnout.

Joshua Gordon: Yeah. So I mean, there's a few different things I would say, like super practical things.

So number one is as we were planting New Life Fellowship, there's a group of, I think, 25 different people that were the kind of the planting team, and just talking about like the DNA of the church and the heart of the church. And what came through so clearly was this conviction, "If we don't have the people to run a thing, we're not gonna run the thing."

And so that's great to say when you're planting because there was another church that was kind of partnering with us, like kind of donating some people and some supplies to help us get up and running. And so we had a lot of different volunteers to run a lot of different things. But it came to a point one summer where we'd had the same group of like six people cycling through, doing kids ministry on Sundays.

It was like we were burnt out, and so we just stopped offering kids ministry during the summer. And it was a great break, but we absolutely lost people. And we lost some families too- Mm ... 'cause they were looking for that. But that level of, I think, commitment to people and to people's wellness and their health has been really, really valuable, especially for me coming from a place of where church ministry had like this weight of obligation attached to it.

And so knowing that I actually had the freedom to say no, and I, I can't do this or can't do that thing or don't have the, the capacity for it, and I wouldn't be looked down on, I wouldn't be judged, like that's been huge. That's been really, really huge. So I would say there's a second really significant element to it as well, and this is probably where New Life probably breaks away and becomes pretty different than a lot of other churches where we operate by a principle of like plural leadership.

So we don't have just one lead pastor. So there are four pastors on, on our pastoral team, and we are equals. So we have a lead pastor who's full-time, and there's an associate pastor who's part-time. But when we get together to make decisions, it's, you know, Ross's opinion is not more valuable than Josh's or than Greg- Mm

than Robin's opinion. It's, no, it's like we all come to the table, it's like we're all equals. And we also operate through like unanimous votes, I guess. It's not really a vote if it's a yes or this. But the idea being that if there's a direction that we're considering moving and one of us just isn't feeling it, then we just assume that the Holy Spirit is active in all four of us and will act, and we'll all be in unity together.

And then, and then, then we'll move forward there. I mean, that kind of gets into other things in terms of how our church is structured and, you know, the, the elders or pastors are kind of like the s- spiritual heart, the vision of the church, and we have a board of deacons- ... kind of does a lot of the management and overseeing of different teams and that kind of a thing.

So a lot of the operational decisions, we don't, that's kind of- Above our pay grade, below our pay grade. I'm getting paid nothing, so I'm a lay, I'm a lay pastor, so. But that's delegated out to other folks, right? But knowing that there are three other pastors, and we've been very intentional also about cultivating very open, very transparent relationships where we don't have secrets from each other.

We make a real point to develop a strong sense of community and openness within the four of us and within our wives as well. And that, I think, is probably the single biggest thing that has, you know It's a constant source of life, and I think that, I mean, I know too many pastors who, they're siloed, they feel alone, and when you're alone and secrets start to set in, a lot of damage can happen.

A lot of damage can happen.

Becca Banyard: Definitely. Beyond just having multiple pastors at the top at your church, do each of you have your own mentor or somebody that you seek counsel from?

Joshua Gordon: I would say yes and no. It's not like there's, like, an official capacity, really. All four of us, we all have a support network outside of the church as well.

So, I mean, I, I'm very comfortable going to, like, there's several contributors to leadpastor.com that I have a great relationship with, and that I'll go to them to talk through things and to kinda hash things out. But it's definitely, so yes in that sense, no in the sense that we go outside the church or outside church leadership to find our primary support.

Like, our primary support- Mm ... is with each other. And I had one interview that I did with TLP, and the interviewer's like, "Yeah, if you're a pastor, you should definitely find someone outside the church who can help you handle your dirty laundry." And then the next person I interviewed had the exact opposite advice, and their stance was, you know, if you have to go outside of the church to find someone you can be vulnerable with, then you're actually creating a cla- sort of class system within the church.

Like, you are not worthy for me to be vulnerable with. You kinda set the tone for the church. And it's like you said earlier, thinking back through the people who've had the most impact in my life and in your life, it's very often s- those people who are willing to be open, and they're willing- ... to share struggles and, and where, where they feel like they're falling short, and they don't feel like they have to be super polished.

And so yeah, New Life, we, we definitely, we really, really value that kind of vulnerability within our relationships and also, you know, from the front in terms of preaching and, and that kind of thing. So we're working hard to define and to build a church culture where perfection is not standard.

Excellence is not the standard. It's, like, faithfulness and trust in Jesus, yeah.

Becca Banyard: I'd be curious to hear from you, because you talk with a lot of church leaders outside of the ones who you're leading with, what you're seeing as the biggest challenges that they're currently facing.

Joshua Gordon: It's not gonna be a surprise if you've been listening since the beginning of the episode, 'cause it comes down to very often it's loneliness.

It's like people feel- Yeah ... so lonely, so disconnected, and sort of siloed within their church. And it makes sense if your church board is determining your salary. If you're having a hard ti- like, struggling with your marriage, are you safe to go talk to them? You know, if you're- Yeah ... struggling personally with, with habitual sin, like, where do you go to get help and support?

I think that loneliness is one of the really, really big things, and m- maybe, maybe that's like the flip side of a coin, which is pressure. And many folks have very, very high expectations of their pastor, and it's uncomfortable to discover that the person that you see as the representative of God is actually not perfect.

And so, I mean, I've got a lot of experience letting people down, and so I expect to gather a lot more in the coming years. But yeah, letting people down and, is not a fun thing to do. And so, yeah. So I think those are, for me, those are two really, really kind of central pieces that kind of feed off each other very often.

Becca Banyard: Yeah, that makes sense. I think, too, on the piece of loneliness, like another area where I think there's a lot of loneliness is for the people who carry that pioneer calling because they're often the ones going first, and there usually aren't that many people who are going with them. There's people following behind, but everything that they experience, they're experiencing first, so there are oftentimes, they don't have anybody who relates to them because they're experiencing something that not many people are experiencing because they're going ahead.

Joshua Gordon: And I think that's true in a way of, like, being on a pastoral team as well 'cause, like, there are very unique pressures that at New Life Fellowship that I have to deal with. So, you know, we had an experience where there's someone who's like originally is like a very close friend, and then over the years, it's like kinda like a distance kind of a, kind of began to grow.

And, you know, and like, we've all got young kids, we've all got growing families, we're all busy, and like, sometimes just, you know, gaps in relationships kind of appear. And, and so having to navigate that and kinda handling, like, responding to frustrations, like personal frustrations in terms of like the personal relationship, uh, and think issues that are happening there, and then you add in as well, well, this is also somebody who's in leadership in the church.

And so, okay, so now it's like the personal stuff is absolutely impacting the church leadership stuff. Like, that is a type of pressure and frustration that, you know, the average person sitting in the seats isn't gonna really understand. And so within a church, as a pastor, you like, you've gotta have somebody that you can be open with about your frustrations and struggles.

And so I would say that, you know, thinking about Jesus sending out, I think it was like Uh, the 72, I think. He had, like, a bunch of followers he sent. He never sent anybody out alone. It was always in pairs.

And thinking about Paul and his ministry journeys, he always had a team of people. And so, like, I'd say that if someone listening is one of those pioneer types, don't go alone.

You're right in that there's not g- a lot of people are gonna get it, but God's gonna bring you somebody, and if you don't have that person- Yes ... maybe slow down a little bit, you know?

Becca Banyard: And for people who are experiencing loneliness and isolation, what would kind of be one or two key pieces of advice that you would give them?

Joshua Gordon: Yeah, I mean, my goal is that this, this podcast and The Lead Pastor newsletter are gonna be great sources of encouragement and inspiration. You know, obviously, there's a, we can't be personal encouragements to one another because there's, there's a distance here, right? But my encouragement is that, my hope is that you hear the podcast, you read the newsletter, you read the articles and you're like, "Okay, there's somebody else who gets it and understands, and where I can actually be constantly being pointed back to Jesus and finding encouragement there."

So that's one, one really big thing. I would say the second thing is look for a person, somebody in your church that you believe has got your back And begin to pray about what does it look like to develop more of an open relationship with that person. It might not be the person you most expect. It might be somebody different.

It's one of those things where you don't just dump all the dirty laundry out in one shot, because you have to be very careful about that. And, like, that person's gotta earn your trust over time. But just start looking, like, asking God to start bringing to mind, to bring to your attention who's somebody that I can begin to develop a, a relationship like that.

I would say, you know, feel free to reach out to me personally, joshua.gordon@theleadpastor.com. And I know folks, I know mentors, pastoral mentors who are always open to conversations and, you know, they've got cohorts and that kinda thing. We don't offer that at The Lead Pastor at this point, but I know folks who do, and so we can get you connected with folks.

So those are the things I would say.

Becca Banyard: And for anybody listening, that's your cue to hit Subscribe right now -

Joshua Gordon: Yes, leave a glowing review-

Becca Banyard: So you never miss an episode ...

Joshua Gordon: glowing review.

Becca Banyard: Yes.

Joshua Gordon: I deserve it, dang it.

Becca Banyard: Josh, are there any other areas beyond loneliness that you think pastors need encouragement in at this time?

Joshua Gordon: Oh, there's so many, so many areas. I don't know if I can just pick just one specific thing. I think theleadpastor.com, we started out very much with a heavy focus on tech and software, and so there's still a lot of great content on theleadpastor.com about that type of thing.

I know some of the stuff that, you know, we've got coming down the pipe as far as upcoming episodes of the podcast, articles that I think are gonna be really, really great. We've got stuff around sermon preparation. We've got stuff about handling church finances, and how do you handle the financial pressure that comes with being the pastor at a church, navigating that.

I've got interviews with folks who've been through scandals. Now's not the time for the stories, but there's tons and tons of stories. And yeah, I'm, I'm really hoping that everything on the site, it's good words seasoned with wisdom and seasoned with experience.

Becca Banyard: Josh, this has been so great getting to chat with you.

There's a lot to look forward to in the coming weeks, in the coming months on the podcast and on the publication. So just as we close, I would love to hear from you just what gives you hope when you look at the church?

Joshua Gordon: Yeah, man, I mean, it's a tough question in some ways because I think a lot of pastors are in places where they see fires in their church.

I think kinda humanity, we're kinda wired that way in a lot of ways. What I'll say right now is I am in a season right now where we are, as a church and as church leaders, we're just coming out of a really difficult 18 months. And I was literally having a conversation this morning with one of the other leaders at New Life, and I said to him, "You know, like, I look back on this time period, and I made it so much worse than it actually was because of the anticipation that more bad things were gonna happen."

And it's like, so what gives me hope is, like, looking back at what actually happened and looking for God's goodness and seeing it everywhere, all through everything. And kind of going back to, we talked about the beginning, like, there's redemption, right? Like, there's so-

So I see so much hope as I look past, knowing that, okay, the God who was with us through all that stuff, He's charting the course ahead, and He's waiting for me, and tomorrow He's waiting for me in the future.

And it doesn't necessarily make it easier to trust Him, because I struggle to trust God sometimes. But at the same time, what I'm discovering is that Things are rarely as terrifying or bad as I think they're gonna be, and that hope is based off of the experience that I've, that I've actually had. And the more people that I talk to on TheLeadPastor.com, the more guests I interview, the more articles that get published, I'm finding God is doing really, really great things in people's lives, like, all over the place.

And so I guess I'm kind of hoping that The Lead Pastor also kind of begins to offer that type of hope and the messages of, of people's redemption and what's actually been... You know, we see the challenges that other folks live through, but boy, seeing how God comes through for them, man, it's just so exciting.

It's so exciting. And so I'm hoping that TheLeadPastor.com ends up becoming a source of that, of that type of hope as well, so. I'm reminded of the story in the Old Testament where King Hezekiah is, you know, the country is quite prosperous and doing really well, and there is a delegation, it's, like, from Babylon or Syria, like one of, like, the villains, the perennial villains of the, of the Old Testament.

They send, you know, a delegation under the white flag to come and, like, create a, I don't know, they wanna have peace talks or something like that. And so Hezekiah takes them through the land of Israel and is just, you know, giving them a tour. Showing them, "Oh, here's, like, all the gold and stuff that... Look how amazing the temple is, and here's, like, all of our armory with, you know, where soldiers are storing their stuff," and all this ama- these amazing things.

And then the delegation leaves, and then God's prophet comes to Hezekiah and says, "You idiot." You know, that's the Josh Gordon translation. He's like, "You should've showed them all the memorial stones everywhere." And if you look through the Old Testament, any time God did something amazing, it's like build an altar, right?

And so they have these memorial stones. It's like, "You should've showed them the place where God split the Jordan River. You should've showed them where Jericho was. You should've, like, all these things, and, like, but you didn't. You showed them how ripe a plum you were for the plucking," you know? And so I think that speaks a lot to hope, because so often when I...

And this is what I'm living through. Like, I feel like things are gonna be terrible because I look at my physical circumstances, or it's your church's bank account, or your attendance numbers or whatever.

Becca Banyard: Or your personal ability, like-

Joshua Gordon: Or your personal ability, absolutely. And it's like, no, like, our hope isn't in those things.

Like, our hope is in, is in Jesus. And so it's, it's look for the areas, the places where God has done amazing things and, like, that is where our hope for the future comes from, our hope for the church. And so, I guess that's a long-winded answer to your question, but.

Becca Banyard: No, it's so good. And he never changes. Like, he's the same yesterday, today-

Joshua Gordon: Absolutely.

Becca Banyard: And forever. So being able to look back is, we get hope from that.

Joshua Gordon: Absolutely, 100%.

Becca Banyard: Yeah.

Joshua Gordon: Fully.

Becca Banyard: Ah, so good. My heart feels so full.

Joshua Gordon: Great. Excellent.

Becca Banyard: Josh, this has been a pleasure, and I look forward to, uh, being in the producer seat behind the scenes, listening in on episodes and, uh, getting to learn from all the insights that you capture on the show.

Joshua Gordon: Yeah. Well, you're, you're very welcome. I'm so excited to be... have an excuse to work even more closely with you. And to reiterate what I said a few minutes earlier, if you're listening to this and you're like, "Dang it, Josh and Becca were great," then give us a five-star rating, give us great reviews, all those things, and, uh, make sure you subscribe and look out.

We got more awesome episodes and awesome interviews coming up.