The Case For Plural Leadership

Joshua Gordon: ​Welcome to TheLeadPastor.com Podcast. My name is Joshua Gordon, and man, I'm always excited to sit down and talk to guests, but today's guest is pretty rad. His name is Sats Solanki. He is pastor at Reflect Church in London. Sats and I have a, a good number of things in common, one of which is we both spent most of our adult life working in church leadership in some capacity, and also ran into some serious walls.

In Ca- in Sats' case the church folded that he was in, and he was kinda left scrambling and left with some significant gaps in his context and ideas about what healthy church leadership should actually look like. And so today's conversation with Sats really grows out of all of that. We talk about plurality of leadership versus the one-man-at-the-top model.

We talk about what a pastor's role actually is supposed to look like. We talk about what can happen in church when the weight gets shared rather than one person, one individual bearing the full weight of, of pastoral responsibility. It's a, it's a great conversation. We talk about a lot of really good stuff. I think you're gonna get a ton out of it.

Welcome to TheLeadPastor.com podcast. My name is Joshua Gordon, and I get to sit down with Sats Solanki. Why don't you introduce yourself, kind of the high level, and then I'm excited to see where our conversation today goes.

Sats Solanki: All right. Well, hello, and hello everyone.

Thanks for having me on. I always struggle with introductions, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I feel like my life is in so many directions. I'm a pastor involved in church leadership. Church, as you said, called Reflect Church in London, in the UK. We sort of planted that out six-ish years ago, which came out of another church that kind of died in just semi-interesting circumstances.

That was kind of like a big junction point because I'd kind of been involved in church leadership really my whole adult life, which sounds quite grand, but I think just I was in an environment where you just got pulled in, right? And I was obviously called to it, like, clearly God had a plan for my life, and I just got involved and started getting involved with church planting and church and all the kind of stuff like that.

And so six years ago really was a big junction point because it was like, I guess just a, a chance to look at everything afresh. So a lot of my sort of thinking and the way I'm doing church now is coming not only from that point, but it's been a, a significant moment. And then kind of outside of leading church, I run a brand called Digital Rabbi, which is, I guess it kind of feels like just a

theoretically it's a business, but I think more, more than that, it's more of just a space for me to do other things. So I have a background in a bunch of creative services and design and copy and video, and so it kind of allows me to play with some of those things and put out music and also thoughts and theology.

So it kind of all kind of ends up sort of being quite similar across the board, but just different spaces, different names. Yeah.

Joshua Gordon: I kind of like that. I think, you know, it's the same Sats, just in different spaces. And so of course there's gonna be, like, a pretty strong through line through that. And so there's a couple things.

I remember when I first encountered you, it was through your Instagram account, and as I was kind of engaging with your content, a few things kind of stood out to me as similarities in terms of experience. Number one, I grew up in church leadership as well. And I think my first ever church volunteer job, I think I was like 11 maybe, straightening chairs between services.

So I had like a stick that was like the right length to make sure the chairs like, you know, keep the rows straight, all that kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, like, I kind of was like just sort of sucked into the, boy, vortex sounds so negative, and that, not something I'm trying to t- try to imply. Sucked into like this stream of like, of church service- Yeah

and a life that's, that's around that. And so that's also been for my whole adult life, which, like, it sounds grand. I kinda lean into that on my resume and LinkedIn. And the other thing that's interesting to me is how it seems that you and I are both on a track in terms of we're, you know, church that's all about bigger, better, flashier, and then there's like a crash that happens of some kind, and then okay, out of that, for me at least, I struggled with do I leave church behind completely?

And it was like, no But God wanted to show me a different way of doing church. And the crash almost, for me at least, was required to sort of zero out the board in terms of my expectations of what church leadership should be. I don't know. Does that resonate at all?

Sats Solanki: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think one of the things I noticed is quite interesting about, I don't know, just my own journey and my own voice, is that I realize that a lot of people may have had a similar experience to what you're describing and what, what I've experienced as well.

And sometimes people just fall out completely. It's just difficult. The experience is too painful, so they fall out of church. Or they even, this is where you get a bit interesting theologically, they fall out of their relationship with God or whatever. I mean-

Joshua Gordon: Yeah ...

Sats Solanki: I think for me, I, I just... You know, Jesus is real, right?

Like, I can't, I can't unsee it,

so that was never gonna happen. But I do see that, like, a lot of people maybe continue loving Jesus, go to a different church. But most people don't tend to sort of turn around and head it on in such a face-on way, in the sense that sometimes the easiest thing to do, and often the right thing to do, is just to go and live a quiet life and just get on and grow and heal.

And you don't need to talk about it, and you don't need to make a big thing of it. What I think has been interesting for me is what has felt probably more like calling to really go directly there, and part of it probably flows from just my wiring. Like, I need to understand everything. Like, what happened?

So I've gotta investigate, and then as I'm going, I'm talking about it. So yeah, I think, I think it's kind of interesting. I don't know if that answered your question, but it is what it is. We're gonna work with it.

Joshua Gordon: It is what it is, you know? I was gonna say we have a captive audience, but I guess they can click away anytime they like.

But please don't do that. So one of the things that the moment I was like, "I have to talk to this dude," was you were talking about, on Instagram, about plurality of leadership when it comes to churches. And I grew up in an environment where you had one dude at the top who sort of set the tone, set the culture, and the folks around him, their job was to support that and to execute on the vision.

And I think that's a very, very common leadership structure, leadership approach. And the church that I helped to plant six or seven years ago, we sort of rejected that and said, "No, we wanna have a group at the top." So coming across you and Reflect Church was like, "Oh my gosh, this is another church that's about this."

One of the first times out in the wild, you know, come across like, "Hey, I recognize that." Yeah. So from the previous conversations you and I have, I know that it was some of the difficult experiences you had at your previous church that sort of pushed you into looking at plurality of leadership differently.

Can you talk a bit about that, and what happened, and then how your confidence in this plurality of leadership approach has grown and deepened?

Sats Solanki: It's such an interesting topic, because for everything I was taught about what leadership is and how it should work, there's I think a lot of implicit kind of hierarchy in that way of doing it.

I wanna just be clear as well and say that, like, I think there are many ways to do things. I don't know if I've discovered the only way you can do things. So I think that that's just in there. But I think what I kinda have noticed looking back over my life is to kind of question some of the hierarchies almost kind of like received like heresy.

To, to question the way le- leadership is structured or the way it should be done, it really feels like, at least in my part of the body of Christ, I'm more in the sort of Pentecostal side of things, it's really set. And to do it in a different way and to advocate that maybe that way is not the best way for X, Y, Z, which we can go into, is really received very strongly.

Like, there's a lot of deep emotions, and you could say that people are triggered by this topic. And so in itself, that's really fascinating to me. What is it about leadership and the particular structure that we're so tied to, particularly when we're the sort of church where we pride ourselves in being creative and being free thinkers and not being, you know, maybe as traditional or bogged down as, you know.

We might look at the Anglicans or Catholics, and they are like those guys in their robes or their incense. Shout out, by the way, to the Anglicans, the Catholics. But, but like in our sort of part of church, that's kind of the mentality is there's a little bit of like, "We're the free ones." And yet like discovering, yeah, but we seem to have like not complete freedom on all of these things, so there's one way to do it.

So coming back to my experience in church, church leadership, it was like there is really only one way this should be structured. I was completely immersed in that way of thinking. Like, if you had met me seven or eight years ago, like this is the only way. I would be looking at you strange if you talked to me about plurality leadership, thinking, "Who is this?"

Like, I just, I would not bother continuing the conversation, you know what I mean? I'd be polite 'cause I'm British, but like we ... So fast-forward to then 2020 when the church sort of implodes, and there's a bunch of stuff that hits the headlines. It's not like ... I'm not sure the things that hit the headlines were necessarily the main issues.

That's what's kind of fascinating. They were more just the things that sort of, the straw that broke the camel's back. And long story short, it was a multi-site church, large church. Senior pastor sort of went back to the home country and sort of- Never really kind of acknowledged anything that had happened.

That was the really difficult thing. So it was very much just like we're just getting out of here and we were sort of forced out and blah, blah, blah, blah. We don't need to overly emphasize that, but the point is, is that everything that I knew and believed, not about Jesus, but about the church, how leadership should be structured, was just decimated in that moment because I was so

I was just so in that culture. And so just to realize, wait, the fruit doesn't look good, like, I was just ... First of all, I was in, I was in denial. I was just like, "There must be an explanation. Like, da, da, da. What have we here?" So, like ... And then just as it became more and more clear, for example, right, just as we were in our city pastors corner right till the end.

We were there in the Instagram comments. Do you know what I mean? Like, we were so immersed, and then they left, and then one of them blocked us, like blocked our phone. But I was, like, so confused by what had happened, but it's kind of like it says something about the culture, this culture of, like, you're either fully with us or you're kind of not.

It's very black and white. So I think I just came out of that with so many questions, so many questions about, okay, if things are not as I think they are, then I need something. Do you know what I mean? 'Cause if I'm gonna be a part of a church, I can't just go attend a church unless I ... Like, I'm just

Because I'm wounded now, right? So now I've gotta deal with that. Gotta understand what, what happened and all of that. And kind of in the midst of that, at that point, we were leaving the location of our church in, in London. It got really smashed, and most people left. It was the pandemic and all of that.

People just went home, different countries around the UK, et cetera. And so we were left with, like, a really small amount of people and just some friends really We got kids. We got four kids, so we got a few families, and like, what do we do? And we felt like the Holy Spirit was saying, you know, "You don't have to start a church.

You'll be fine. Just go attend somewhere if you want. That's totally cool." But also I just felt like God gave us this word, which was lead the people free. That was really the word. I just realized there's people around us. We all kind of had a tough time, and we all need community, so that was kind of the starting point for Reflect Church, and, you know, we kind of started out.

But of course, as you'll know, like, if you start a church, you have to communicate things. You have to preach. You have to teach people how things should be done, right? So I've got these huge gaps in my knowledge now because I've just ... A fire has just burned through sort of my core theology about how we should do church.

So, so we gotta figure that out, right? So that was kind of the, the environment.

Joshua Gordon: A couple comments. So what's really striking to me is that it wasn't this theological conviction that the way that we're doing church is wrong, and so the Bible says this, so we're gonna go do it this way. It's almost like you backed into what I believe is a strong theological position because of the failure of another type.

So that's one thing. The other thing that strikes me is the pastoral calling that you have. It's like even in the midst of the cracking of your worldview, the shepherd heart is still there. Kind of to compound that is, like you said, stepping up to preach or to lead, and like now you've got these new gaps in your knowledge.

It sort of forces a humility and forces a I don't have all of the answers. And for me, yeah, like you said, if you talked to me eight, nine years ago, I'd be like, "What's wrong with you?" Like, the pastor's gotta be confident. I probably wouldn't go so far as to say hide your weaknesses or hide your fears, but probably would be like get kind of freaked out if the pastor does express doubt or fear- Yeah.

Yeah, right ... or anything like that. But I also think that if I want a shot at thriving as a human personally and at being a pastor, wearing a superhero cape all the time is, like, just terrible for your mental health And so it sounds to me like you followed the invitation from Jesus to continue to lead into a place where the reasons you may have had for confidence were gone, but your willingness to do that ended up kind of creating a culture, a new culture that's like, sounds like a lot healthier.

I think my read is right, but I mean, what do you-

Sats Solanki: I'd say so. And you know, there's no such thing as a, as having no culture. Like, you can't be void of culture. There's always something that you're building, so you really are forced. And, and I think this is probably the... In the conversations that I had online, obviously the Internet's an interesting place.

We still talk about theology. Probably the biggest sort of assumption or misconception people start with when they hear some of that story is exactly what you said in the sense that I've started this journey because I've been forced to. It's reactive, right? I've had to explore something because something's been destroyed.

So I think the unfair sort of assumption is like, "Oh, this is just reactive. You know, this is trauma. This is church hurt." And initially, yes, you know. But then as time goes on, you know, we're now six years past that event. It's like I've spent six years searching and studying the scriptures. So now for me, my theological position on morality, et cetera, it's not coming from reaction.

The journey of curiosity started, of course, from a place of, I need answers, but now we go to the scripture. You know what I mean? And so I think that's important because I think there is a bit of a false sort of like, I think there's like kind of philosophical terms for this, aren't there? But like in an argument or a debate it's kind of like, oh, well, we can dismiss what Sas is saying because he's hurt, you know?

And there's a lot of that around. If someone has a bad experience in church, we dismiss it. We go, "Oh, they're probably a bit rebellious But like I'm telling you, like I was so all in, man. Like I was not one of the people on the outside. I was on the inside and I just so happened to be here.

Joshua Gordon: Let's define plurality of leadership. Like what does that mean for you practically at Reflect Church?

Sats Solanki: I mean, it is what it sounds like, I think. But I think what's very interesting is once you start to talk about this, you realize how much it connects to every other area of theology. That's perhaps why it's such an emotionally big topic for people because as we start to define what leadership should look like, it eventually starts to touch on what marriage should look like.

It starts to touch on what God looks like. It starts to touch on how society, you know, our parenting. So people got a lot of strong feelings about all those things. Fair enough. To answer your question as plainly as I could, plurality of leadership is about not having one person in a hierarchical relationship above others.

But I would see hierarchy as a concession that is allowed through the Old Testament that God can still work in, by the way. God still works and meets people through hierarchical systems, but I would say that that's not his preferred way of doing. I would say the New Testament is brought in a new wineskin, which is equality.

Now, this doesn't get rid of leadership. I think that's the other thing is as soon as you say this, you say, "Oh, well, you don't want leaders." Like, no, we can also have leadership in that framework. So that's where it's like interesting.

Joshua Gordon: Yeah.

Sats Solanki: We've kind of got this idea of we're now being adopted into the family of God.

We're brothers and sisters together, and the primary word used to describe leadership in the New Testament is this word elder, which points to someone who is an older person walking alongside you as a brother or sister, not necessarily a father or mother. We can come to that as well because I know there are some references in the New Testament to that, the parental view.

But I think largely the perspective is Jesus is the firstborn. We've now been adopted in, and now we're all sort of walking together all in Christ. There's this sort of intrinsic equality, this big conversation about, you know, gender equality. You know, Acts chapter 2, your sons and your daughters are gonna dream dr- dreams.

See, there's this young and the old. It's like very inclusive, right? It's like everybody's getting involved here. So it kind of really touches on that. But yeah, I would say it's not having a hierarchical approach to leadership where we see leadership as being above people and there being some sort of spiritual covering that sort of protects.

And if we all stay in line, it's almost like a a definition of biblical unity around hierarchy. I think that's not, for me, the correct definition. Biblical unity God wants us to get to is around equality, and plurality comes into that. So we see leaders as part of the body of Christ, given a specific function to do, but not technically over.

And again, this is where language starts to get a bit fuzzy. But I think fundamentally at the core of it, I don't see myself leading people because I'm above them. I see myself leading people just simply because I'm with them, and I'm called to it, and I do have something to share. I have gift, I have experience, et cetera.

So we celebrate all of that for every pastor or leader listening. Like, do you know what I mean? I don't want to take away from people the fact that they're called and they're gifted and that, you know, God's put them next to people and with people and over people, but I just don't think it's pure hierarchy.

That's really, I think, the theological shift.

Joshua Gordon: I think you're bang on, and a couple thoughts. So I, I interviewed a woman a few weeks ago. Her name's Laura Parker. She's the CEO of The Exodus Road. It's like an anti-human trafficking organization. And so she talks about, like, a generosity mindset versus a scarcity mindset, which I, I think folds into this a little bit because a generosity mindset is it's about me supporting you and your calling, whereas a scarcity mindset is, like, there's not enough to go around, and so I have to hold onto what I have.

And when I think about how you're describing the New Testament kind of picture of leadership, like, I see it in line with that generosity mindset where I'm the pastor of the church, the elder of the church, and so my job is not to say, "What do we need, and how do I fill those gaps in the staffing or the volunteers?"

But it's like, no, but who has God brought to this church? And then how can I best support and shepherd them? And so the focus becomes now less about what am I thinking we should do, and like, okay, how do I help this person hear God better so they can sense where God's leading them and what he has for them?

And so it becomes much more of a, I was gonna say like a gardener, which lines up great because, like, your podcast- Right ... is Leadership Horticulture.

Sats Solanki: Yeah.

Joshua Gordon: And I mean, you think about John 15 and the, the vine dresser passage, like, there's so many great gardener, farming sort of, like, analogies, right? But the other layer to this, I think, is in, oh gosh, I think it's 1 Peter.

It's one of the Peters. Peter talks about how, like, we're a royal priesthood, like a holy nation, and it's no longer, okay, I have a mediator between me and God. It's like, no, no, now Jesus is the mediator, and I have equal access. And I think there's, like you said, there's like a, the hierarchical kind of like more Old Testament focus is, okay, the pastor now is closer to God.

It's s- more special if the pastor prays for me than if I pray for myself. And I see, I see themes and threads of that, like, all through. Like you said, it's, like, all through everywhere. So, yeah.

Sats Solanki: I think as well, like, what's very interesting about this culture, the not hierarchy, is that it's quite subtle.

Most people are not preaching, you know, the pastor is better than you. At the same time, we can communicate that in the smaller ways, and it gets into people's minds so that the the outcome is still the same, that people think that way, and that's what ultimately disempowers them. So I just, like, personally have noticed so many times when I say that I'm a pastor, the atmosphere changes to benefit me, and I don't like it.

I remember being at a friend's birthday party, and, you know, it was quite a small gathering. It was a big number. There were a bunch of people there we didn't know. Most of the people in the room we didn't know very well. My wife and I were there, and everyone was friendly enough, but not, like, especially interested in us, right?

Which is fine. We're just living our life, right? We don't, we don't need to be the center of attention. It's not our birthday, right? Yeah, so we get to support our friends, celebrate them. And then towards the end, you gotta want to say, like, one thing, you know, about the birthday. So we all kind of went around, said something, and then he goes, "Hey, that's, that's my pastor," right?

So he's just like celebrating us, right? The way the room changed in that moment. Suddenly there was this, like, little sparkle in everybody's eyes. There was this openness. There was this... Everyone started asking us loads of questions. Oh, tell me. Something shifted. I was like, this is weird. I mean, it's, it works great for me, right?

I can just go around and flash the pastor card, but, like, I think it just tells you people have got something in their mind, even though no- nobody's standing on the platform saying, "Hey, pastors are more important. Leaders are more important." It's in the culture, so it's part of our subconscious thinking, and so it shows up.

Joshua Gordon: I love and I hate that because- ... I like being the center of attention on my terms.

Sats Solanki: Right.

Joshua Gordon: Yes. Like, right, I like it on, on my terms. And yeah, boy, that's one of those things where, oh- My calling is in pastoring, and so that's the arena where God is working in my own heart. And so I think one of the things that I think pride is so dangerous for anyone, but especially for somebody whose role involves potentially stepping into environments where that sparkle gets turned on when someone hears about- Yeah

oh, you're a pastor, right? Like, and so we've remarked about this with the other pastors, like the leadership team at New Life Fellowship, and how I'm not flashy at all. I just like being in- involved in the room, and I like, I like making people laugh, and I like speaking. Like, all these things where it's like it's somebody who, who doesn't mind being the center of attention.

And on my worst days, I'm, like, craving that and chasing after that.

Sats Solanki: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Joshua Gordon: But that's, again, where I think the plurality of leadership actually offers protection for folks like me because-

Sats Solanki: It does. Yeah ...

Joshua Gordon: it, if I go on a flesh bender or if I go on a, a bender of I need to meet my own needs my own way and I start making moves to, like, elevate myself, like, you can't do that when you have plurality of leadership.

There's a group of folks who share the responsibility for the direction for the church. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a group of folks who share responsibility for the burden of that leadership. And Josh just going off rogue isn't really gonna happen because I'm not allowed to, you know?

Sats Solanki: Yeah, it's built into the structure, isn't it, in a way that protects you.

And I think that that's what's really interesting here is that, like, if you were to design, if you were to sort of start from scratch and actually design the perfect organization, I mean, it's no coincidence that, you know, if you look around the world, the countries you'd like to be in are the ones with democracies, right?

Like right? Like, and the countries where democracy is slightly eroded or it's, you know, sort of faux democracy, yeah, you, you know, and you can see this played out in, in every nation, you know, even in the West. Like, you know, it's a bit suss on. It's all good. Like, hopefully they'll self-correct. It's no coincidence that that is the ideal way, even though we would look at it and go, "Well, also democracy's got some huge problems," you know, but we've never discovered something better.

So it's no coincidence to me that that would make sense if you were to design it from the ground up without the Bible Without the instructions. And then you take the theological perspective from the Bible and you go, "Well, that is what it says." And I think that's the probably the big que- people have never really studied it.

I had never studied it because I just, I was taught it is how it is. And I went, "Okay." But when I've looked back, I've realized what we did is we took our way of doing it, which is a very modern approach, and we've retrofitted it to the scripture. And the problem is that you don't know if you do that or not, right?

Unless you really take the time to look at it. And I'd never taken the time because I didn't need to. It wasn't very important to me 'cause I already knew this is how we do things.

Joshua Gordon: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting 'cause, like, I think the democracy... I don't think this is what you're saying. You're not saying that private leadership is, like, a democratic approach to church leadership.

Sats Solanki: Well, it depends what you mean by that.

Joshua Gordon: Okay. So at New Life Fellowship, so we have the leadership of the church comes down to four people. I'm one of the four, and so we all have the title of elder or pastor. And we believe that the Holy Spirit leads in unity. And so if there's a new ministry that we wanna start or a hire that needs to be made or something like that, and three of us are like, "Yeah, let's go for it," and one of us is like, "I don't know, guys," we'll hit pause until we're all on board because we believe the Holy Spirit leads in unity.

So it's not an, oh, three to one, we're doing it. It's not that kind of like a voting-

Sats Solanki: Yeah.

Joshua Gordon: Yeah, yeah, yeah ... voting type of thing. I guess that's maybe what I mean.

Sats Solanki: Yeah. And then there's some very practical questions that come up as, isn't there? Like, you know, what do you do in that event? How do you handle those sort of things?

Yeah, very interesting.

Joshua Gordon: Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. So you kind of mentioned a marriage, and so I'm like, I want you to hear about, like, how has your wife and your family, how have things changed? Are they different now versus before when, like, before the shift that we talking about?

Sats Solanki: I'd say so, in the sense that- I would say she probably hasn't really changed, but I've probably changed.

She doesn't, doesn't need to change.

Joshua Gordon: Sounds like our wives are similar.

Sats Solanki: Yeah. So my wife, she wouldn't mind me saying this, comes from a fairly traditional way of thinking. She's just pretty chill. Her main goal in life was to have loads of children. Like, this is just... Like, she's just w- That's how sh- who she is.

She's fantastic. And so I think in one sense, our marriage has always been fairly traditional in the sense that, you know, like just the... When we started having kids, we've got four kids now, worked our way for her to stay at home, I would start working, et cetera, all these kind of things. And so I think kind of in her mind, 'cause really what you come down to if you kind of cut to the chase of how marriage works, you've kind of got what are the roles of husbands and wives?

And so there's the phrase, you know, husband is the head of the wife, which is in scripture, and then you've also got the idea that maybe wives would submit to husbands. Then there are other ideas, so I don't want to leave it at there, but they're normally the two that are emphasized and often the conversation does feel like it stops there.

So we operate in marriage in that framework, right? So we, you know, we're a team, but also I would be the final decision-maker. So if there are aspects of like, okay, we're not sure, it's like, "Well, cool, that's my role. I'm gonna take that decision," and that's fine. So it actually worked really well. So this is a great example of how, you know, God can work in hierarchy.

That's a- It's technically hierarchy, right? But I think the problem we've got is- When we take that aspect of the scripture and we hold it in tension with all the other aspects. So for example, you've got, you know, wives submit to husbands, but you've also got husbands sacrifice your lives as Jesus sacrificed his life for his, for the church.

So, so straightaway you go, "Well, hang on a minute. This can't be hierarchy because if anything, the husband is required to do more." Not do more as in to be above, to do more as in to be below. Because Jesus goes down, Philippians chapter 2, you know, he empties himself, you know, of his glory, blah, blah, blah, becomes human to the point of death.

He humbled himself. So that's the direction, down. So that's straightaway like it can't mean that the headship of the husband cannot mean that the husband is the final decision-maker. It cannot mean that the husband is the boss, based off those two things held together. And that's what I think you get in scripture is you get tension of two ideas, and when you emphasize one too much, you miss the other.

So the journey for me has been trying to uncover that and realize, hang on a minute, my wife's been doing a fantastic job by honoring me, respecting me, submitting to me , like all the things that Paul says. Like she's done a great job. Have I done a great job as a husband because haven't I sometimes used my power to prioritize what I want because I thought that's what I was supposed to do?

Like it wasn't malicious. We've been married almost 17 years. I would say hopefully pretty happy. We're having a good time. No complaints from me. So I started to realize that. And then you get other scriptures. This is the thing, it's, it's not just one, there's multiple. So then Paul says the wife's body belongs to the husband.

We're like, "Fantastic. That sounds great." But then he says the husband's body belongs to the wife. What? I've never heard anybody preach on that before. But that is... They're there together. And then you put in the cultural context that this is insanity back in the first century. Yeah. Because the way women were seen, you know, there was all sorts of crazy beliefs that even the way we understand that making children is a two party, 50/50, you know, genetic, it was understood that it was predominantly the man, and the woman was just seen as kind of like the carrier, the soil for the...

So when you look at the history of it, Paul saying what he's saying, it is so crazy advocating for equality. And so the mistake I think we make is around thinking that headship means hierarchy. Headship simply means responsibility in the sense that God is gonna check in with me first. He's gonna say, "Did you do what I told you?"

But in the midst of equality. So I think the journey for me personally in, in a marriage has been realizing that and then realizing, oh wow- I have sat back a little bit sometimes and just like, still this life as a bloke's pretty easy. Like, I know we've got problems as well. We got, we got challenges as well.

We got different challenges, but my body doesn't change. My hormones are very like just sort of 24-hour cycle, not a monthly cycle. I'm very predictable. I'm very ... Like, there's, there's just an, an ease. There is a power, if you like, intrinsic to being a man that I think I've taken for granted and I, I don't think this is a message of like

'Cause this is where it gets annoying, right? 'Cause everyone's like, you know, almost like people hate being a man. They're like ashamed of being a man, ashamed of our power. I don't think we should do that, you know? I think that's the pushback to the progression of the age of almost being apologetic for being a man.

I am a man. I'm just, I'm not gonna apologize for being me, but I'm also aware that intrinsic to my maleness, there is a power dynamic that I can bring. And so it's not bad to have power. The problem is just not to know that you have power. 'Cause once you realize you have power, then you understand the power is there to serve.

The greater the power that's given to you, the more you're called to serve. So Jesus, who has all power, goes right down. So the more I recognize, and this is where you go to leadership, 'cause you go, "Well, as a leader, I now have power." You go, "Okay, drat." Like, I gotta keep going down, right? And that's, I think, how God creates true equality and creates a beautiful harmony and unity.

Yeah, I'm honestly just learning here in our marriage and trying to implement that. But yeah, I'd say the learning's all been with me. My wife's pretty. She's on it.

Joshua Gordon: I feel like we could rewind, you know, X number of minutes as you're describing marriage and just swap out pastor for husband. Because, like, you think about in church, the pastor holds the power, and I'm thinking back to my Bible college days and Professor Carey Belt and talking, like, the

So he had, like, a leadership class, and the first day is like, "What is leadership?" And then we break into groups and, like, define leadership, whatever. At the end of the day, it comes as, like, leadership is influence. And when I think about my role as a pastor, I can't get away from it. It's like my words carry more weight, not because I've earned that, but because people have given that to me.

And so I think especially in a church where, you know, the Western world, where we're kind of, like, it's been this monolithic hierarchical structure where if you have the title pastor in a church, people right away look at you differently. Like you said, I don't really like that. I don't like when people call me Pastor.

Like, just call me Josh, please.

Sats Solanki: Yeah,

Joshua Gordon: yeah. But people still do. I remember, like, praying about it one time. God's like, "You know, Josh, you are a pastor," so it's like, "Don't stress about it so much." Like, there is just this extra weight that comes with, you know, as we speak about our thoughts or our perspectives.

And so I think we do have to be careful and being aware of that. And so we have to move more slowly and be more careful and be more mindful. And the more protections we can have around our dark sides, like the shadow side of Josh, the better. I just think, what's the other thing is, that's coming to mind is the Last Supper as Jesus is washing the disciples' feet, like, this act of complete servitude, like, a revolutionary.

And Peter's like, "No, God, don't. Don't wash my feet."

Sats Solanki: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Gordon: And, like, what's his reaction to that is like, "If you don't let me do this, you have no part..." I love Peter's reaction. He's like, "Okay, well then, like, give me a bath, man." Like, it's like-

Sats Solanki: Yeah. It's kinda, kinda.

Joshua Gordon: It's, yeah, so I, I think about the, you know, husbands, like, love your wives way Christ loved the church.

It's like, oh, good Lord. Like, that's Like go down to the worst, quote-unquote worst, like the level- Yeah, yeah ... it's my own needs, my own preferences need to come. In our family, it's seventh 'cause I got five kids, so it's like- Okay ... it's I'm last in the chain, but yeah. I've often noted, like if I have a bad day, boy, the family just struggles in a different way.

Sats Solanki: Right.

Joshua Gordon: And like if I'm struggling, the whole family does. I'm like, I don't, I don't love that.

Sats Solanki: Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Gordon: Right? And-

Sats Solanki: Yeah. It's interesting. Maybe just one thing to mention here as well that I think is important to mention is that again, I, prior to, you know, this theological journey I've been on, we heard loads of messages about servanthood.

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. About laying down your life, about humility, about... Do you, do you know what I mean? It wasn't an absent from the culture, it was just the problem is, is that it was redefined. We've redefined what it meant. So the idea of, you know, laying your life down for your wife was you do that by occupying your hierarchical position, by being the decision maker, by being the X, Y, Z, right?

Even if it wasn't explicitly said, that's the conclusion you came to. And I think the same conclusion happens from pastoring as well. It's like, hey, the way that we love people, the way that we serve people is by leading them, by giving them strong vision, by modeling for them. And so it's like the heart intent is often super correct.

It's just, you know, how it's being applied is actually not producing the fruit that we hope it is. And obviously, eventually you find out, like you see what the fruit is. And I think, you know, many, many people, maybe those who are listening who are maybe in some hierarchical environments could be doing a fantastic job.

Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that's the really interesting thing with this. It's just so subtle, you know? So subtle.

Joshua Gordon: My favorite when I was a kid was I was to read through the Old Testament during sermons and my dad was preaching. And boy, the line of Old Testament kings and prophets is like just crazy.

And it's wild to me how there were kings that were good kings, and the whole country prospered in those times, right? But there were a lot of really bad kings that did terrible things. I think that affirms what you're saying is that you can be a really good king and your whole church can prosper in a more traditional, monolithic, hierarchical position.

But that structure in and of itself lends to some really bad kings and some really- Yes ... dangerous, dangerous positions.

Sats Solanki: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah, it's interesting that God actually allows for kings. Like He, He actually mentions it, "Hey, when you, you know, cry out for a king or whatever," He gives rules around it like earlier on, but then when they actually ask for a king, He's kind of a bit annoyed with them.

And I think it's because kingship is supposed to be in the mix, you know? But the promised king, of course, is Jesus, you know? And so I find whenever we sort of try and, you know, we're jostling for position a little bit, you can do it in a misguided way, and you can do it with good heart, and God will be quite gracious.

But it's not a great idea, is it?

Joshua Gordon: Yeah, it's like what you said, people are crying out for a king and it's like, okay, well listen, listen, here's what's gonna happen. He's gonna ask for your, the best of your sons, the best of your daughters. He's gonna ask for the mo- all your money. Like, you're gonna have to make sure you understand what you're asking for.

But again, but God used that. Man, dude, this has been a great conversation. I really, really appreciate you, Sats. I think you're doing great work. I'm a big fan.

Sats Solanki: Thanks, man.

Joshua Gordon: If folks are interested in connecting with you, following you along, give us the deets. How do we find you?

Sats Solanki: Yeah, so Instagram is kind of where I hang out. Well, actually no, I hang out mostly in the offline world, but for the purposes of the podcast, @satssolanki, so you can check out. And then I've got a podcast where I try and go into these topics a bit more in depth. 'Cause I've realized you know, Instagram can be spicy and we need some nuanced theology.

We haven't talked about loads of scriptures here today, but like there are scriptures for- There's a lot, yeah ... things we've been saying here about plurality and how the early church was structured and all the historical context. So there's like a lot to go into. So yeah, I have a podcast called Leadership Horticulture.

You can search for that or Digital Rabbi, which is my sort of my brand name, I suppose.

Joshua Gordon: Cool, man. Well, listen, I hope this has been helpful for you, listener. I would appreciate it if you would, whatever s- podcast platform you are on, just give us a lot of stars and write a glowing review 'cause the algorithm, you know, we, we serve the algorithm anyway, so that, that would help.

Huge thanks to producer Becca, who takes care of editing all this. Thanks a lot, Becca. You always do a great job.

And Sats, thank you so much, and I would love to chat again sometime if you're, if you're up for it.

Sats Solanki: That'd be so cool. Thanks so much for having me on, Josh. It's been fun.